Random craziness from my brain, oh and stuff about games I play on Impulse and Steam.
Just amazing.......
Published on September 4, 2007 By lordkosc In
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Bioshock Sequel? Sweet.....

I think it would be cool to be a prequel, where you work for either Fontaine or Ryan, and get to see the Rapture before it got the crap beat out of it...
Comments (Page 1)
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on Sep 04, 2007
Eh, who knows. It'd probably have to be some kind of concurrent story, possibly following "Adam's" resistance efforts elsewhere.
on Sep 05, 2007
I think a sequel is unlikely... Its more likely that they'll just release a similar game. It sounds like this guy is just thrilled people like the game and thus wants to do a repeat... much like a director making one hit movie and then wanting to make another movie... which may or may not have anything to do with the first one.


Personally, what annoyed me about bioshock is that it gave me SO much freedom that it made me upset that I couldn't turn on Fontaine earlier and save rapture for Ryan.



*spoiler... you have been warned*



In Bioshock you're initially made to believe that Andrew Ryan is a bad guy. But as you progress through the story you realize that Ryan's city was attacked by a very clever and insidious enemy... that basically everything you know about him is a lie. Sure, Ryan was pretty cold blooded about a lot of things.... But he was an Idealist. And much of what he did that was bad was a reaction to effectively being in a war for the very survival of his city with Fontaine. Ryan was right... Fontaine was a parasite. He couldn't have built rapture and without men like Ryan Rapture couldn't survive. I'd like to see more... I'd like the option to either let Fontaine or Ryan win. Invariably I think if Fontaine won he'd just screw it all up have to come up to the surface as the city fell apart. If Ryan survived there would be a lot of nasty rebuilding and "cleaning up" to take care of, but after that Rapture could rise again.
on Sep 05, 2007
Um, no. Fontaine have needed to die to a much larger degree than Ryan did, but Ryan is no saint. He tried to kill Rapture himself, at least twice in the in-game storyline, and his actions elsewhere were hardly awe-inspiring. Introducing the death penalty over smuggling? Or how about picking up "Fontaine Futuristics" as part of his own personal fiefdom by having the law seize it for him?

Ryan was no Captain of Industry, just a common Robber Baron who needed to be slapped down by the same anti-trust legislation he was escaping from.
on Sep 05, 2007
I personally found the climax of the game dissapointing for the pure fact that it ruined the 'could' happen atmosphere of Rapture.
on Sep 05, 2007

Um, no. Fontaine have needed to die to a much larger degree than Ryan did, but Ryan is no saint.

I didn't say he was a saint. He was however a strong and intelligent idealist with the will and ability to make the impossible possible.

Consider the Opera Diva... or the irrational rock star. Do you complain when they ask you to get 20000 yellow M&Ms or do you go out and get them because that's what needs to happen to get them to play?


If they're good... you get the damn M&Ms.


This guy built a city at the bottom of the ocean and made all sorts of other impossible things almost easy.

He tried to kill Rapture himself, at least twice in the in-game storyline, and his actions elsewhere were hardly awe-inspiring.

Rapture was Ryan's city... and Fontaine was trying to take it over. The story has a very Ayn Rand feel to it, and if you're familiar with Atlas Shrugged you'll know exactly why Ryan tried to destroy Rapture. The Wyatt Oil fields are a good example... In the book the government is taking over industries... basically stealing from these brilliant industrialists under the pretense of the greater good. They're basically just thieves. Anyway, Wyatt torches his oil fields when they say they're going to take them from him. No one was able to get oil out of that ground but him. He was the only one that made it even possible. So he torched it and left them the land he started with... theres' another one with a big bank that's the "best" in the country. When he feels they're going to start controlling him he shuts his bank down. Sends everyone a casher's check for their savings down to the last penny... the bank ceased to exist in about 24 hours.

In fact, the strangest plot hole in the game is that he failed. He should have succeeded. He wouldn't have been stupid enough to tell you to kill him and then left the means for Fontaine to save the city.

Introducing the death penalty over smuggling?

Part of that was because they had to keep Rapture secret. That falls under national security type stuff. Again, this story is a LOT like Atlas Shrugged. In that book there's a secret valley where all the industrialists, scientists, inventors, and wizard business people have fled to where they've made their own separate society. Trading with the outside world is prohibited.

Or how about picking up "Fontaine Futuristics" as part of his own personal fiefdom by having the law seize it for him?

First, I think that happened after Fontaine was caught as a major crime leader.
Second, I never said Ryan wasn't ambitious. Remember the opening video? He believes in earning as much as you can and not having to apologize to anyone for it later.

Ryan was no Captain of Industry, just a common Robber Baron who needed to be slapped down by the same anti-trust legislation he was escaping from.

if he were a robber he wouldn't have produced. The fact is that he did produce.

Furthermore, what made the robber barons bad was their government enforced monopolies which they typically bribed politician's to get in the first place. What's more many honest business people in those days were threatened by politics TO bribe them or they'd make trouble for their business. Some of that still goes one today. Look at the special interest groups. Half of them are there to bribe politician's to give them government handouts. Basically, I'll give you 10 million for your election campaign or to some fund that eventually spews back into the politician's pocket... the other half are there to bribe politician's to not harass good companies.

Washington is dirty... Worst government that was ever made... except for everything else that's ever been tried.
on Sep 05, 2007
Ofcourse Washington is dirty, its a city, and built in such a horrible area too.
on Sep 05, 2007
yep... a drained swamp.
on Sep 05, 2007
How much does that say about our glorious capitol and what our founders thought of it.
on Sep 06, 2007


Consider the Opera Diva... or the irrational rock star. Do you complain when they ask you to get 20000 yellow M&Ms or do you go out and get them because that's what needs to happen to get them to play?


Um, yes.

He wouldn't have been stupid enough to tell you to kill him and then left the means for Fontaine to save the city.


While I agree that he shouldn't have left the means to disable the self-destruct in place (the "genetic key card" thing) he as much as said it himself: you had breached all his defenses, leaving him with nothing to stop you. He didn't let you kill him so much as he changed track and instead of trying to prevent you from being able to kill him, he did his best to "break" your programming.

Its not like he could have grabbed a pistol and dueled with you. Not and live to tell about it -- you'd walked through all the best defenses he had, dozens of big daddies, hundreds (if not thousands) of splicers, you'd mowed down sentry cameras and turrets... need I go on?

Part of that was because they had to keep Rapture secret. That falls under national security type stuff. Again, this story is a LOT like Atlas Shrugged. In that book there's a secret valley where all the industrialists, scientists, inventors, and wizard business people have fled to where they've made their own separate society. Trading with the outside world is prohibited.


Keeping Rapture a secret is one thing. Trying to prevent all commercial (and, as was suggested, cultural) contact is another, and just plain stupid. You might be able to make people by from inside the city, but there is no chance whatsoever of making them not-curious as to the goings on of the world they left behind. Maybe a few people could be convinced to loop inward on the city, but not all, not even most.

First, I think that happened after Fontaine was caught as a major crime leader.


So? Public official using his public office to improve his private position. AKA: Corruption.

Second, I never said Ryan wasn't ambitious. Remember the opening video? He believes in earning as much as you can and not having to apologize to anyone for it later.


I don't have any complaint with ambition, and in fact the little intro movie to rapture was enough to make me really leery of the guy. Most of what he said I could live with, and on some level agree with. But the instant he talked about "petty morality" as being a bind on scientists, alarm bells should have gone off in everyones head.

No, thats not inherently a wrong statement, merely a flag post to watch closely -- very closely. That adjective, petty, is the word on which the entire thing swings.

And having allowed the genetic manipulation of Tenenbaum go through, there is no doubt on my mind that it swung the wrong way. Heck, if nothing else the big daddies would be enough for me to be upset, though I might buy them. But the little sisters? No. Way. In. Hell. None. Having allowed, in fact having supported that... project... As far as I'm concerned, that alone was enough to earn him the title of villain. Tenenbaum... she changed her heart, and tried to free the sisters. She's debatable as to whether she ended as villain, though there is no doubt in my mind she started as one (I do believe in redemption, after all...).


if he were a robber he wouldn't have produced. The fact is that he did produce.


And then he destroyed.

He killed people for no better reason than they had opposed his will. He admitted -- he was proud! -- to having burned an entire forest to the ground simply because it was being made into a national park. He tried to kill everyone inside his city by destroying the air supply. He tried to turn the place into a totalitarian state when he began to loose control of his oh-so-precious "great chain".

Long story short: Ryan may have been your hero, but he was never, will never, can never be anything but a villain to me. Death may have been an excessive punishment, but there is no doubt in my mind that he deserved it.
on Sep 06, 2007
While I agree that he shouldn't have left the means to disable the self-destruct in place (the "genetic key card" thing) he as much as said it himself: you had breached all his defenses, leaving him with nothing to stop you. He didn't let you kill him so much as he changed track and instead of trying to prevent you from being able to kill him, he did his best to "break" your programming.[/quote]
He could have said "would you kindly kill yourself" and it would have been over. Or would you kindly kill Atlas and Fountain. He KNEW about your programming and he knew the control phrase.


The genetic key on him made no sense at all. You did breach just about all of his defenses. But he DECIDED to kill himself AND Rapture.


Remember what he said? He said "a MAN decides, a slave OBEYS".


Ryan's philosophy rejected God, patriotism, and serving other people. He believed in the individual. He believed in being a MAN. Which to him meant doing what he HE wanted and doing it well.


He killed himself on purpose. He had no intention of breaking the programming.

Its not like he could have grabbed a pistol and dueled with you. Not and live to tell about it -- you'd walked through all the best defenses he had, dozens of big daddies, hundreds (if not thousands) of splicers, you'd mowed down sentry cameras and turrets... need I go on?

Choke on your own tongue... would you kindly.


Keeping Rapture a secret is one thing. Trying to prevent all commercial (and, as was suggested, cultural) contact is another, and just plain stupid.

Again, you'd have to read Atlas Shrugged to understand it seems.


The game is clearly based off that book.

You might be able to make people by from inside the city, but there is no chance whatsoever of making them not-curious as to the goings on of the world they left behind. Maybe a few people could be convinced to loop inward on the city, but not all, not even most.

They let people come and go prior to the riots. The whole idea of the city was that it be self contained thought. With no contact with the outside world.


So? Public official using his public office to improve his private position. AKA: Corruption.

Not at all. Fontaine broke the rules and thus had to pay. Ryan went to great personal expense to take him down. Who else should benefit from defending the city?

How was Ryan not entitled to Fontaine's fortune? Most of it Fontaine had stolen or made by causing problems for ryan in the first place.


I don't have any complaint with ambition, and in fact the little intro movie to rapture was enough to make me really leery of the guy. Most of what he said I could live with, and on some level agree with. But the instant he talked about "petty morality" as being a bind on scientists, alarm bells should have gone off in everyones head.

So I'm going to guess you're against human embryonic stem cell research?

And having allowed the genetic manipulation of Tenenbaum go through, there is no doubt on my mind that it swung the wrong way. Heck, if nothing else the big daddies would be enough for me to be upset, though I might buy them. But the little sisters? No. Way. In. Hell. None. Having allowed, in fact having supported that... project... As far as I'm concerned, that alone was enough to earn him the title of villain. Tenenbaum... she changed her heart, and tried to free the sisters. She's debatable as to whether she ended as villain, though there is no doubt in my mind she started as one (I do believe in redemption, after all...).

I agree, Ryan's support of the big daddies and little sisters doesn't make much sense and it was absolutely bad.

It doesn't work with ryan's philosophy and it's a plot hole. Ryan shouldn't believe in making slaves and that's what the big daddies and little sisters are... slaves. You heard how Ryan refused to regulate plasmids because that was a control on the market? That feeds into the whole "a man decides" mantra. Ryan should have allowed people to decide to have the slugs put in their bellies with some kind of plasmid. Then some people could have the production of adam be their job. Those slugs didn't need a some fluid out of a corpse to make them work they worked all by themselves. But apparently they worked better as a parasite in a human being... and even better if fed a special mixture.


And then he destroyed.

Ryan believed he "Owned" Rapture. So destroying it was a right he had.

He killed people for no better reason than they had opposed his will. He admitted -- he was proud! -- to having burned an entire forest to the ground simply because it was being made into a national park.

Again, you're not understanding the philosophy here. Ryan owned that forest. He bought it.


They tried to steal it from him. So he destroyed it.


Savvy?

He tried to kill everyone inside his city by destroying the air supply. He tried to turn the place into a totalitarian state when he began to loose control of his oh-so-precious "great chain".

Ryan was clearly insane towards the end. But you have to see he was pushed. He didn't start out that way he was attacked and his defense naturally led him to some very nasty decisions.


Eventually, Ryan took the final measure and decided to kill himself in a way that proved he was a man and YOU are a slave. Thus proving the very mantra of his life. And then he blew up rapture.


The fact that you could stop the self destruct is a plot hole.

Long story short: Ryan may have been your hero, but he was never, will never, can never be anything but a villain to me. Death may have been an excessive punishment, but there is no doubt in my mind that he deserved it.

You're not making an effort to understand the man. I recommend you read Atlas Shrugged as I don't think you can understand Ryan without reading the book he's based upon.

Ryan isn't really my hero, I admire him to some extent simply because he accomplished so much... made so much possible. But I see his flaws clearly. Men like Ryan have to be kept at arms reach... and you have to watch them and be read to defend yourself should they decide to "do" something to you. But they're admirable in that they don't live to dominate people but to dominate themselves. They live to empower and enrich themselves which often indirectly helps most people.


In any event, Rapture couldn't survive without Ryan... And Fontaine was just slime. Rapture might have survived and done well without Fontaine in there to screw it up.


on Sep 06, 2007
Putting your own text inside the quote. How... annoying.

He could have said "would you kindly kill yourself" and it would have been over. Or would you kindly kill Atlas and Fountain. He KNEW about your programming and he knew the control phrase.


And so did Fontaine, who was in fact the person who "commissioned" you. Betcha Fontaine could override Ryan if he tried anything fancy.

That said, the entire scene was probably overdone out of dramatic imperative.


Choke on your own tongue... would you kindly.


Not a chance. But whhat did I do to annoy ya so bad as to kill me? [quote]


Again, you'd have to read Atlas Shrugged to understand it seems.


Which I haven't

And probably won't, either.


So I'm going to guess you're against human embryonic stem cell research?


Actually, no. While I refrain from coming down one way or the other on abortion (though I personally lean towards the first trimester only unless a threat to the mothers health), stem cell research per say has no objections coming from me. None whatsoever. What I meant was not alarm bells as in "Something is wrong! Murder death kill!" but more along the lines of "need to watch this closely... very closely."


They tried to steal it from him. So he destroyed it.

Savvy?


OK, you try that line the next time some wacko murders their kids because social services comes by. And yes, there is a difference between a child and a forest. But to destroy an entire forest in a moment of pique... no way. Sure, its not sentient life, but its life. You don't just casually destroy that to make a point.

And I don't give a damn if that contradicts me point for point next time I say that a forest fire, destroying an entire forest, isn't that big a deal -- there is a huge difference between an accidental fire that burns through a forest (and most such fires are in fact beneficial to the forest) and destroying something living, and beautiful, just to keep someone else from having it.
on Sep 06, 2007

Putting your own text inside the quote. How... annoying.

that was a mistake. Sorry.

And so did Fontaine, who was in fact the person who "commissioned" you. Betcha Fontaine could override Ryan if he tried anything fancy.

Would you kindly turn off your radio... would you kindly wear ear muffs... Further, if tanumbaum knew how to turn some of it off then I don't see why Ryan wouldn't know it was at least possible.

That said, the entire scene was probably overdone out of dramatic imperative.

I think we can all agree the ending didn't make much sense.


Furthermore, I really didn't like the final boss fight and the story doesn't really change at the end that much whether you kill the little sisters or save them.


Save them and the final movie shows them growing up and getting married... kill them and it shows splicers boiling out of the ocean to take over the world. The actual story while you were playing didn't really change.


Actually, no. While I refrain from coming down one way or the other on abortion (though I personally lean towards the first trimester only unless a threat to the mothers health), stem cell research per say has no objections coming from me. None whatsoever. What I meant was not alarm bells as in "Something is wrong! Murder death kill!" but more along the lines of "need to watch this closely... very closely."

The point was everyone was allowed to do whatever they wanted so long as it didn't hurt anyone else.

The artist was freed from the critic. The Businessman was freed from the thieving hands of parasites. The scientist was freed from petty morality.



OK, you try that line the next time some wacko murders their kids because social services comes by. And yes, there is a difference between a child and a forest. But to destroy an entire forest in a moment of pique... no way. Sure, its not sentient life, but its life. You don't just casually destroy that to make a point.

First, it wasn't a moment of pique. It was a cold deliberate action of defiance. Think of it like someone trying to steal your company from you so you sabotage the company so it's not worth anything... it's dead.

Second, what if someone tried to steal your cattle so you kill them all? Lets say it's 1840 in the US midwest and 20 armed men attack your herd. You know these men... they've struck before... they'll take your cattle and then kill you. Before they take your cattle though you know you can stamped the cattle off a cliff. Do you do it?


Your choice. A man chooses.

Ryan chooses to spit in the eye of people that steal from him. That's his motto. Steal from me and you'll get NOTHING.

And I don't give a damn if that contradicts me point for point next time I say that a forest fire, destroying an entire forest, isn't that big a deal -- there is a huge difference between an accidental fire that burns through a forest (and most such fires are in fact beneficial to the forest) and destroying something living, and beautiful, just to keep someone else from having it.

I'm not trying to contradict you. I'm trying to explain what makes Ryan tick. If you're not interested then it's your loss.
on Sep 06, 2007

that was a mistake. Sorry.


I know

Further, if tanumbaum knew how to turn some of it off then I don't see why Ryan wouldn't know it was at least possible.


Theres a difference between possible and knowing how to do it. And, also, Tenenbaum had you in her "hands" when she did it, didn't she?

Would you kindly turn off your radio... would you kindly wear ear muffs...


True. True. That is a little strange.

Furthermore, I really didn't like the final boss fight and the story doesn't really change at the end that much whether you kill the little sisters or save them.


Save them and the final movie shows them growing up and getting married... kill them and it shows splicers boiling out of the ocean to take over the world. The actual story while you were playing didn't really change.


Well, I'm still playing through the evil way, but I really liked the way the little sisters just boiled up out of the vents and took him down "for" you.

they'll take your cattle and then kill you. Before they take your cattle though you know you can stamped the cattle off a cliff. Do you do it?


No, I stampede the herd through them. Personally, I never say die... and I sure as heck would be more focused on a "taking you with me!" attitude. But, thats just me.

And, on top of that, I'm of the opinion that having domesticated a given animal, I am responsible for it. It doesn't' exist to service me, we exist to service each other. Symbiotic, not parasitic. Just like the little sisters have a symbiotic relationship with the slugs in their guts.


I'm not trying to contradict you. I'm trying to explain what makes Ryan tick. If you're not interested then it's your loss.


...? Sorry, shoulda been clearer: That was a (preemptive) defense against the possibility that I said something that might have opposed that earlier. I was explaining the apparent contradiction in my mindset.

Think of it like someone trying to steal your company from you so you sabotage the company so it's not worth anything... it's dead.


Thats just it: There's a huge difference between a company (or a herd of cows) and a living, breathing ecosystem. A company is dead, cows are just poop-makers, but a forest? A forest is alive like no domesticated animal.
on Sep 06, 2007


Theres a difference between possible and knowing how to do it. And, also, Tenenbaum had you in her "hands" when she did it, didn't she?

The point is that Ryan commited suicide... that is killed himself on purpose using fontaine's weapon. Fontaine sent you there to kill Ryan and Ryan helped him do it.

You might want to replay Ryan's speech before he dies. It starts when you break through those doors after you've caused the core to overload and ends when he gets his head caved in.

He's writing his epitaph. His final words. He's telling you that he's done great things. Things that neither you nor Fontaine could do. He's saying he's a man. A free and creative entity that built rapture from the ground up. He's saying he won't be a victim and he won't be a slave. He's saying that if you steal from him, you get nothing.



Well, I'm still playing through the evil way, but I really liked the way the little sisters just boiled up out of the vents and took him down "for" you.

****Spoiler****
They boil out like that no matter what you do. The only difference is the final movie and tanumbaum says mean things to you over the radio.


No, I stampede the herd through them. Personally, I never say die... and I sure as heck would be more focused on a "taking you with me!" attitude. But, thats just me.

Ryan tried to stamped the cattle over Fontaine. He tried to kill him. Ryan didn't give up until he had no choice but to suicide.

As to him burning the forest, what were his options? Give up? You seem to think he should have given up but you say you don't say "die"... well. Ryan believed that more then you apparently. He fought back with everything. And after they stole from him he decided he didn't want to live in place where people could do that to him. So he built rapture.


See?

And, on top of that, I'm of the opinion that having domesticated a given animal, I am responsible for it. It doesn't' exist to service me, we exist to service each other. Symbiotic, not parasitic. Just like the little sisters have a symbiotic relationship with the slugs in their guts.

Well... that sounds very nice and everything but when was the last time you ate meat? Are you prepared to pay 200 dollars for a pound of meat that only comes from animals that died of natural causes? Old animals... animals that were sick?


It'll be expensive, gross, and probably unhealthy. You kill a healthy animal... in the prime of life. Even better if you kill them as little babies or teenagers so the meat is tender.


I know... sounds evil and creepy huh? Well.. That's meat.


The only people that have the right to be offended by the meat industry are people that refuse to eat meat. I'm not among them. I love meat. All kinds. Chicken, beef, lamb, pork... it's all great.

I'm just not going to pretend that that little package of delicious meat wasn't once a small frightened creature living in a cage of some kind in a factory meat production line. That factory meat production system does very little for the animals. About the only thing I could say for it is that it just about ensures that cows and chickens will never go extinct. So there is some value there.


I can say the same thing about corn or apple trees. We grow these life forms for our benefit. period.

Pretending otherwise is naive. It's like being a vampire that likes to pretend he's a humanitarian.


Thats just it: There's a huge difference between a company (or a herd of cows) and a living, breathing ecosystem. A company is dead, cows are just poop-makers, but a forest? A forest is alive like no domesticated animal.

A company to someone that built it is often like their own child. They spent years of their life making it. They sweat blood and tears to make it what it is... it could employ thousands of people and thousand of other people could depend upon it. Yet people rarely feel bad about attacking a company.

A company to a businessman is like a work of art to an artist. It is their creation. If you're an artist and someone steals your work, you might burn it.


That forest was Ryan's. It was his land. Did they offer to buy it from him? No. They told him to turn it into a free park. Basically stole it from him. Told him it didn't belong to him and they weren't going to compensate him for his loss.


So he burned it. Harsh? Dramatic? Sure... they were making up things Ryan did to explain the man. Remember he's a character in a story.

Like the kid in the movie that gets his lunch money stolen. Or the CIA guy that is lied to by his best friend.

These things have a point.

The kid that gets his lunch money stolen is being portrayed as a weakling that gets pushed around by an unjust world full of thugs. The CIA guy gets lied to by his best friend to show that he lives in a world of betrayal and shadows.


They told you about Ryan burning down that forest to explain who Ryan is... They showed he was... You don't have to like him, but if you understand him it's hard not to respect him. There's a big difference between respect and affection.
on Sep 06, 2007
Well... that sounds very nice and everything but when was the last time you ate meat? Are you prepared to pay 200 dollars for a pound of meat that only comes from animals that died of natural causes? Old animals... animals that were sick?


I'm not saying food animals don't die. I'm saying that I don't kill them to no purpose beyond spite.
There's a big difference between respect and affection.


Yup, and I do respect him. Just really dislike.
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